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 Map10 - "And Then You Die"

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deathevokation
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MessageSujet: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Dim 19 Mai 2013, 23:23

Hi Smile

Here's a collaboration between Valkiriforce and Captain Toenail from an unreleased old abandoned project of mine. Let me know what you think

I'm not sure if it fits into the map requirements but I figured there's no harm in posting it and if it doesn't fit then it's no big deal. In my opinion it has potential, and has a decent layout, it could probably benefit a few monster placement changes, texture changes or even if one of you have time you could play around with it.



Map01 - no textures required

If you decide to keep it maybe contact valkiriforce through Doomworld with feedback or I can always link him to this topic.

F. : Title changed


Dernière édition par deathevokation le Mar 28 Mai 2013, 19:02, édité 2 fois
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[WH]-Wilou84
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 11:27

Hey !

Thanks a ton for posting this, I've had a first playthrough ( with PrBoom ) and the map has nice ideas to it ( the first one being the two Red keycard teasers at the beginning, thats very clever :p ).

The layout is good indeed, and gameplay-wise it could perfectly fit in the second episode of NT ( maybe as map 12 then, or 11 if Necrotik's map goes to the third episode as it is supposed to... ? ).

A minor problem though is that both the BFG9000 and the Cyberdemon are introduced. Not that it would be too early of course, but I don't know how Franck would like to introduce these core elements into the wad progression.

Another thing is that the map is maybe a bit linear ( you have the typical "3 colored doors in one room" syndrom here ), but maybe the key-locked doors could be pushed backwards a bit to give the player more freedom to explore ( for example, instead of having sector 296 locked by the Blue key, we could let it be a regular door and having linedef 2491 requiring the Blue key ? ).

I'm also not a big fan of surprise linedef teleporters ( I'm talking about the ending room and the arena fight ). Maybe having the teleporter leading into the arena and having the exit directly in the arena would be better, imho. Arenas aren't speedrunning-friendly, though Surprised

Sorry I'm too picky here, really the map is cool Smile
And it's not like our other maps are geared towards speedrunning - well, only a handful of them are.

Anyway, I didn't really took time to check out speedrunning tricks for this map yet, and I'm not the best at this. Maybe JC could shed some light on this matter ? Smile

In any case, thanks for bringing this map to us, and thanks to valkiriforce and Captain Toenail Smile
We should ask them about the possibility of modifying their map a little ( retexturing, maybe some gameplay changes here and there... ). I'd really like to play around with it a little, if I'm allowed to. Twisted Evil
I'm curious to see what Franck says about this.

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 16:12

I played the map, and I agree with Wilou, it is an excellent map. It is effectively rather linear, but it is of the "good" linear, I was not bored, in spite of the map is big. The progress is rather close to the style Oxyde's maps. I see well this map in the slot 9. However, there is certain rectification to be made :
  • The texturization is very sober in this map, I like very much, but it will be necessary to add some variant of green with customs textures of the NT pack, to be in the theme.
  • Make a normal exit, remove the arena with the cyber which is too. Maybe created a new trap in the computer room, in front of the exit to compensate.
  • Replace the bfg by an item (soulsphere for example). And put less big monster in the courtyard of the key blue.
  • Add a column in the courtyard of the yellow key, when there is revenants' trap. (To avoid missiles).

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 17:32

franckFRAG a écrit:
The progress is rather close to the style Oxyde's maps. I see well this map in the slot 9.
C'est vrai qu'elle irait très bien en map 09, exact !
Son style se rapproche de celui de DaRk, donc c'est cool. Smile

Par contre la map utilise beaucoup le SSG et les monstres plus résistants de Doom II, et il y a aussi des passages légèrement infernaux ( je pense à l'endroit où le Cyberdémon est placé au début ).
Si tu mets cette map en tant que map 09, ça implique sans doute de changer tout le gameplay de la map ( sauf si tu veux inclure le SSG dans le mégawad à ce moment-là ? Smile ).

Il y a aussi la solution de mettre cette map en 11 ou 12, avec des textures plus "rouillées", comme ce que tu as sur ta map 15 ! Smile
A toi de voir.

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 17:54

Ah oui, j'ai zappé pour le ssg, peut-être la déplacer en map11 ouais, avec des textures rouillées Smile

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 19:13

[WH]-Wilou84 a écrit:
Sorry I'm too picky here, really the map is cool Smile
Hehe, no worries about being picky... you should see me with my collaboration with Snakes and Valkiriforce. Razz

This is a high class megawad so along with that picky standards are cool. Wink

There is some good feedback in your post and it'd be very cool to see what you can do with the map! Smile

My thoughts are if we got Valkiriforce's permission for you to play around with the map I'd suggest maybe playing around with the layout and maybe opening the map up a bit more to give the player more options and make the key routes less streamlined (especially the blue key route) to add more replayability, because I completely agree with you on linearity.

And an additional way to make the layout better IMO is instead of using one key to open one door, and then using the key behind that door to open the exit... would be to make both routes accessible from the start and be able to choose which key out of the 2 to pick first and then you need both to unlock the exit?

Also, what do you think of the height variation? Do you think it needs a little more?
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 21:28

deathevokation a écrit:
[WH]-Wilou84 a écrit:
Sorry I'm too picky here, really the map is cool Smile
Hehe, no worries about being picky... you should see me with my collaboration with Snakes and Valkiriforce. Razz

This is a high class megawad so along with that picky standards are cool. Wink
Haha, nah really a lot of the existing maps in NT have this kind of problem as well, now I just try to make sure the new maps are more speedrunning-friendly and less linear, so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. Smile

deathevokation a écrit:
And an additional way to make the layout better IMO is instead of using one key to open one door, and then using the key behind that door to open the exit... would be to make both routes accessible from the start and be able to choose which key out of the 2 to pick first and then you need both to unlock the exit?
Yeah, that's definitely a good idea. Wink
The monster balance would need some changes though, as for now the gameplay kinda escalates as you progress, and with this idea both paths should be equally as hard. I'll keep that in mind.

deathevokation a écrit:
Also, what do you think of the height variation? Do you think it needs a little more?
Yeah the map feels a bit flat now that you mention it, but I cannot complain on this point as my old maps are guilty of this as well. :>

Fortunately we also have maps with huge height differencies ( Dislogical's first map, some of Franck's work and your own map ( judging from the screenies ), among others ), so this won't be much of a problem I suppose.

I'll send a PM to valkiriforce on Doomworld and see if he's OK with all that. Smile
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@ Franck : Ca te va si je m'en occupe ? Smile
On se met d'accord sur le slot 11 alors ?

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 21:48

Awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing the final result of this map, it has a ton of potential that can be tapped into and really become a classic.

This probably isn't the place to say it, but work on our NT map is picking up again by Snakes. Smile

I hope our contributions spark morale for the rest of the team to attack this wad and get this monster project finished. I'm really looking forward to the final result! Very Happy
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 22:16

Globalement vous en êtes ou ?

Impatient de voir NT sur Zdaemon Smile
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 22:45

@ Wilou, je te donne mon feu vert, va pour le slot 11 Smile

@ Data, ça avance doucement, là depuis ce weekend, j'ai plus de temps libre, et je vais pouvoir travailler sur NT plus souvent Smile

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Lun 20 Mai 2013, 23:44

Okay.... message from Valkiriforce regarding making changes to the map: "Yes absolutely; I figured there was much more to be done on the map, as it felt empty as it was."

And Wilou, when you are finished playing around with the map, would it be cool if you sent it to me to also play around with? I have exams at the moment so I can't do anything for the next month so I can't do anything any time soon, but I do have an idea or two. Smile

Cheers man!
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Mar 21 Mai 2013, 09:31

franckFRAG a écrit:
@ Wilou, je te donne mon feu vert, va pour le slot 11 Smile
Cool, merci Franck !
Je vais essayer de faire un truc bien alors.

deathevokation a écrit:
Okay.... message from Valkiriforce regarding making changes to the map: "Yes absolutely; I figured there was much more to be done on the map, as it felt empty as it was."
Thanks !
I'll try not to butcher the map, I promise. Twisted Evil
It's a nice level already, I'll just try some new things here and there.

deathevokation a écrit:
And Wilou, when you are finished playing around with the map, would it be cool if you sent it to me to also play around with? I have exams at the moment so I can't do anything for the next month so I can't do anything any time soon, but I do have an idea or two. Smile

Cheers man!
Oh sure thing Smile
I'll try to change all the little things I wish to before the ( hopefully successful ) end of your exams, and then handle the result to you. Should be interesting. Wink

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Mar 21 Mai 2013, 10:07

Cool!

So at the end of each episode do we kill the player to force pistol start for beginning of the next?
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Mer 22 Mai 2013, 01:02

deathevokation a écrit:
So at the end of each episode do we kill the player to force pistol start for beginning of the next?
Good question, I don't believe we've actually put some thought on the matter... Any idea, Franck ?

I'm not a big fan of these, to be honest, but some kind of trap room with sector effect 11 ( à la Doom E1M8 ) sounds cool to me. Smile
This way the player wouldn't die, but he'd be at like 5% health on next map and would probably restart the map from scratch then.

On another note, the speedrunning route for the new map 11 will probably include a suicide rocket glide. Wink
I've already implemented some quick gameplay and texturing changes. Hopefully it will be ready for you soon, but no need to rush though. Exams first. :p

Edit : Oh I see the map has a name. Smile
Cool. Wanted to call it "Valk Labs" as a reference to the author and wad name as you sent it, but "And Then You Die" is fine too. :p

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Mer 22 Mai 2013, 01:52

I thought "And Then You Die" is quite classy because it's badass + it's also tongue in cheek. Cool The name will go along well with a suicide rocket glide as well. hahaha

Cheers bro, have fun with the map and feel free to "butcher" it to your heart's content... if you have an awesome idea, IMPLEMENT IT!! Very Happy

Okay seriously I need to stop posting and start studying.... come on Deathevokation why do you do this every exam?
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Jeu 23 Mai 2013, 00:29

deathevokation a écrit:
Okay seriously I need to stop posting and start studying.... come on Deathevokation why do you do this every exam?
Hahaha, you remind me of myself a few years back, playing Doom and ZDaemon while I should have been studying... :p

I'll probably finish my work on this map and send it to you and the team before Saturday, just so that I could make sure you completely screw up your tests. :>

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Jeu 23 Mai 2013, 13:14

Thanks bro, I love you too. I love you
*goes to Doomworld user profile and clicks "remove from buddies"* Razz

Probably said this a million times in this thread but I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Smile
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Sam 25 Mai 2013, 15:35

deathevokation a écrit:
Thanks bro, I love you too. I love you
*goes to Doomworld user profile and clicks "remove from buddies"* Razz
:>

Ok, so, after a short delay ( mainly due to the beta release of Stardate 20X6 ), I feel like ready to present you what I've done with valkiriforce and Captain Toenail's map. Smile

Basically, I've implemented the following changes :

Spoiler:
 

I'm sending you the map by e-mail, so that you could try new ideas of your own and playtest it again. Smile
Any feedback is appreciated. But still, this is nothing compared to Ribbiks' maps Surprised

Cheers !

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Sam 25 Mai 2013, 22:07

Mad
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Sam 25 Mai 2013, 22:33

:>
I know exactly how you feel, hahaha :p

Take your time, maybe I'll send an update anyway ( multiplayer doesn't seem populated enough ). Or maybe you could take a look at it as well ? Smile

Edit : Yeah multiplayer modes clearly need some touching up, one of the Pain Elementals in the sewers ( thing 693 ) is blocked by linedef 4025 and is therefore useless, a lot more ammo should be added at the start ( along with a Backpack ), and the 3 Pain Elementals in front of the Arch-Vile ( things 708, 750 and 751 ) are completely useless thanks to a monster-blocking line. I should really have played it in -solo-net mode before sending the map. facepalm.jpg
Anyway.... Do whatever you want with these :p

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Sam 25 Mai 2013, 23:44

Wow man... just going to say right now that you've done an AMAZING job with this level!! I'm really happy I sent it here. On Tuesday I'm done with my exams so I'll play with it then, so you can try update it in the meantime. Smile

I loved your Community Chest levels and your Plutonia Revisited map, but this has elevated you to one of my favorite modern mappers/least favorite forum members. ;P
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Dim 26 Mai 2013, 00:34

deathevokation a écrit:
[...] this has elevated you to one of my [...] least favorite forum members. ;P




Ok, I'll send a small update then ( it seems that the Arch-Vile next to the Yellow exit door can be seen through the wall at a certain angle - and there's a few other fixes that need to be made ). I'll leave the extra multiplayer things to you though, and I haven't added DM weapons ( only DM player starts ), so feel free to add them. Smile

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Dim 26 Mai 2013, 18:31

I don't do DM starts because I have no idea how to implement them effectively as I don't play death match.

Btw, is the music track original or can I get my friend to design a midi for this level?

I hope I don't fail tomorrow lol.
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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Dim 26 Mai 2013, 20:43

Ok, well I'll take care of DM then, afer I get your update. Smile
Usually Single Player maps turn out to be pretty awful DM maps though. I tend to put player starts and weapons here and there without too much thought / playtesting...

Regarding music, no it isn't an original tune, it comes from one of my favorite sources ( Hell Revealed II ).
Feel free to replace it by something else then !

GL&HF for tomorrow Wink

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MessageSujet: Re: Map10 - "And Then You Die"   Mar 28 Mai 2013, 09:23

[WH]-Wilou84 a écrit:
Usually Single Player maps turn out to be pretty awful DM maps though.

Hmm. I am agreeing to this. I feel like deathmatch is requiring maps which are made specifically to this gameplay. Usually I am not placing deathmatch starts in my maps (unless it is a request like in 3 Heures d'Agonie).

I am waiting with anticipation to the completion to this new map. In fact, I am thinking that I should be helping testing this (and some other maps), but I am currently rather distracted by Stardate. Razz

I am promising doing this nevertheless ! Smile
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